Beautifully You! with Tatiana

Amelia: Hello everyone and welcome to the podcast. My name is Amelia, and this is how to Breast cancer at the thebreastcancerguide.com. Today we are once again talking about a favorite topic and that is beauty. And we are joined by Tatiana Morales, who originally joined us for our May 10th Beauty event where we talked about all kinds of different aspects of beauty and she covered a very important component of it, which is how do we really care for a skin, for our hair, for our nails during treatment, as we know that is an incredibly challenging time, and has so many repercussions.

Tatiana is a licensed and trained oncology esthetician. She has two certifications from rather prestigious programs. One is the Oncology Spa Solutions and Oncology Skin Therapeutics. Her company is called Wellness on Wheels by Lilly Belle, and she also is the founder of a nonprofit called Wow Therapy for Hope, which she created to help those that are navigating a cancer journey, be able to manage well, the side effects from chemotherapy as well as from radiation. Especially on the skin, which we know, I know from first-hand experience, can be quite-quite challenging.

So Tatiana welcome, it is always a pleasure to be with you and it's so great to see you.

Tatiana: No, thank you. Thank you for having me and inviting me again to one of your beautiful events.

Amelia: Thank you so much. It's our pleasure.

We had a lot of great input regarding your segment at the live event that we did on May 10th. And we had a lot of great follow up questions, which I know you were generous in providing the answers to those, and we posted those on our website. This is a segment where we talk about skin care and nail care and hair care in general. Not everyone that begins a cancer treatment process has access to the right support in letting them know what to do.

I was very fortunate that one of your seminars, I joined early on in my journey, and I was able to get a lot of good insights from what you shared. But I know that there are a lot of patients that don't have that as part of their treatment process because it's not offered, or they may live in parts of the country where it's not accessible to them.

So part of the reason why, we created this platform is to be able to bring these kinds of topics to the forefront and to make it available for everyone.

So, I want to start always with the basics and really ground us on some of these basics because we know that a lot of this can be overwhelming, and many people don't know even where to start. So help us with that. Like, how do we get started, when all this stuff starts to happen?

Tatiana: OK, well. First of all, I just need you to when you start getting overwhelmed to just take a breath and relax, don't get more overwhelmed than you have been already.  You know, skin care, yes, it is a big thing, especially because as we were talking before, chemotherapy, it goes everything through your skin...out through your skin. So that's why you see all the different changes in your skin. Sometimes when you used to have acne for example, and you don't have any acne anymore. Now you have more dry skin or then you start getting some rashes and you don't know where they are coming from or anything like that. Sometimes you see those rashes with pustules, meaning that it's like, a whitehead-kind of pimples. We can call it like that. And they are not acne, they are not pimples.

So it is super important to know that everything that happens to your skin, you should treat it like to calm. Not to really like solve the problem. Meaning for the acne part. To get salicylic acid and put it on and try to dry other pimples, because that's not exactly what is happening.

So everything what you need to do is just, as you said, start from the basics. So just calm the skin. Hydrate the skin, that is the most important thing and avoid everything that is harsh to your skin. Meaning no exfoliation, no waxing. No kind of microblading or anything like that, because one of the things that we see is, when they tell you that you're going to lose your eyebrows, it's like, OK, let's go and have some microblading before I lose my eyebrows. No, no, no. You don't want to do that. You also want to do everything again. Hydration and not opening the skin.

So that's why we avoid everything that’s very aggressive to your skin, because if we open it, then you know, bacteria, it’s an open door for bacteria to get. And that's something that we just want to avoid.

Amelia: So really important point I want to pause, because I think it's so important what you're sharing about the skin.

Tatiana: Sure...

Amelia: I think that there are so many things that are almost become counter intuitive because what we don't understand as a patient is certainly because most people have never experienced something as aggressive as chemotherapy or radiation is where you said is exactly that, it's going through and out the skin. So in many ways the skin is kind of that, you know that porous surfaces going out. And I know for me, I started to notice, you know, the rashes that you're talking about happened usually within probably the first three treatments or so. So about, a month in, it started to happen, and it was rather unpredictable. There were spots and things like that. And so I, went very gentle on my skin for those reasons, because I was concerned of what was happening and thankfully it was something I was able to manage over time. But I think a lot of people, to your point, if you start to see either acne or pimples or other things, you go back to the assumptions that you used before, but those techniques are no longer applicable because it's a different condition that is happening to your skin then what was before.

Tatiana: Yes, exactly.

Amelia: It's not about oils secretion, it's about the fact that the medications and the treatments are going through your skin and out and out.

Tatiana: Exactly, exactly. And you, as a matter of fact, you are having like a natural, if we can say it, “exfoliation” with the chemo, so that that's why you don't need an extra exfoliation. You will see accumulation of dead skin cells and you will see like some patches and everything. But if you shouldn't do anything you know any harsh exfoliation. You just need to again, at the beginning, just calm the skin. There are some little brushes that actually you can put it in in your hand that are made of silicone, and you can find it on Amazon. I don't have exact name of it, but it is like a little brush that you put your hand through it, and you can actually get a little like sensation of exfoliation and that is very delicate way. It will be remove or help you to remove the dead skin. But it is not exfoliating because it's nothing harsh to your skin, so that will help.

Amelia:  And that's a gentle way to shed that as opposed to what we normally would have thought about with something a little harsher or an exfoliator that has already that gritty sand texture.

Tatiana: Yes

Amelia: Which I've never been really a fan of, but I know that they work well on normal skin. So your suggestion is, yeah, just a gentler way to get rid of all that is, is the best way to go.

Tatiana: Yeah. Yeah. And actually Amelia, now that you're saying that exfoliation, it gets like,  with time, we have seen, or we are seeing, that it's not as good as we thought for the skin.  Not only for people that are going through treatment, but for anybody.

Amelia: Interesting. Yeah, I've always had. Again, to me, it has always felt like something so incredibly harsh on skin that doesn't feel that it warrants it. I think it's different if you are treating skin that is, for instance, on the ankles.

Tatiana: Yes

Amelia: Or skin that's a little bit rougher, right? That's natural to actually do that. But for the face and specially the hands that can be, I think obviously, really complex. So tell us also a little bit about caring for the hair. So some patients experience hair thinning, it doesn't fall out completely, other patients, it falls out completely. For me, within three weeks of my very first treatment, all of my hair fell out. And so that's the other part that, even though everyone hears about the possibility of hair loss. I think as a patient, you're always hoping that you're going to fall into that percentage, albeit a small one, that doesn't suffer the hair loss. And so then when it happens, I think it's the immediacy. It starts to fall out in clumps. It almost feels, at least for me, it almost felt like something was like crawling through underneath my hair. Yeah, and I assumed at the time, that was what was happening is that those cells were dining off.

How and most folks don't know what to do in terms of caring, for now their scalp, because basically that's what it ends up being. Tell us a little bit about that.

Tatiana: The most important thing to know is, if you are a patient that is going through chemo and you know you, know you're going to lose your hair because sometimes you assume, but it's not for sure that you're going to lose it. But if you know as a matter of fact that you know the doctor says, yeah, definitely.

Amelia: Highly likely.

Tatiana: Exactly. If you have long hair, just start cutting it up. OK, just go by stages, because it is less traumatic to see when you are losing the hair when you have long hair than when you have short hair. So that's something that you should do. Then after when you start losing your hair and what you said is totally right, normally it's 15 days after your first chemo, when you start losing your hair. It is: Don't shave it. At least don't shave it to the skull because that will irritate more the skull. So just go with the machine #2 or #3, whatever is more comfortable for you. And just cut you know, whatever is, is left. And always just hydrate the scalp because it is very, very sensitive and you will see sometimes, not always, but sometimes you will see also that rash that we were talking about, or the pimples or everything.  And it because it is so sensitive. You just need to take any, you know I'm plan of the oils, and the more natural the better. So if you have coconut oil, if you have avocado oil, if you have calendula oil. Any of the oils just put it on your scalp and start massaging. Having a pillow that is. Ah, I forgot the name, not cotton, but silky material.

Amelia: Satin. Something satin.

Tatiana: Thank you. Yes, that would be the best for it doesn't irritate your scalp. So that would be good. Also, if you have a cover like sometimes, we have little caps that you can put on top of your head, and if they are cotton and they actually stay in your scalp. So when you move it doesn't move around because it's just the friction that really irritates your scalp, but you need to continue Hydrating. You can use the same shampoo that you were using before. Most of the people they go to something like very baby hair shampoo. It is not necessary and sometimes believe it or not, the ingredients in those shampoos are not the best.

Amelia: So that is another excellent point. So I had one of our readers that said they had been told to use baby shampoo. But then they read some of the labels and they found that there were, you know, that they had, like, alcohol. There were things in it that seemed harsher than what she was using before. And so you think implicitly, baby shampoo is supposed to be the gentler kind of things, but not always the case.

Tatiana: Yeah. No, not always. Just try to go to any place that sells natural things. Something that is very good is the shampoos that have tea tree oil in it because tea tree oil is antibacterial. So that will help you with the itchiness and with any rashes that you could have but just hydrate it. Or even if you want the same cleanser that you're using on your face, you can also use it on your scalp. It's not different. It’s skin.

Amelia: Because it's the continuum and I think that's the other part. So I started, I continued my shampoo and conditioner routine. The shampoo that I was using before was kind of a coconut oil-based shampoos that was super gentle. I still use it to this day, and I found it that it was soothing to just do that because like you indicated, I shaved my head using the machine. You know, I went through my hair stylist and she did it for me. I never shaved it with like, a razor. I never used, I know people that use shaving cream and actually shaved. I the buzz of my hair, if you will and some of it stayed. And it so it looked, it was not, it wasn't the best look. I think it would look better if I had shaved it, you know, with the cream. But I didn't do that. And so and so then it just kind of stayed in a particular phase. It was almost like a little fuzz and that's what stayed on top of my head until I wrapped up the first treatment. And it was actually towards the end of that first round, there were eight rounds of that first kind of super aggressive chemo. My hair started growing even though I was still in chemo, and I know that people are surprised. I was surprised by that. Other patients are as well. So I don't you know, can you share a little bit on: If you are doing and caring and hydrating and all that, for some people the hair can start to even grow.

Tatiana: It is like most of the time, by the end of the chemo is when you start getting the hair. OK, I guess this cell, the cells they start you know they have a period of recovering and coming back. So most probably is that's why you start getting your hair back, but it's what you said. It's a fussy king of thing on your head. Then sometimes you'll lose it again and then the real hair comes out.

Amelia: Yes

Tatiana: And still you are supposed to massage your scalp just to get some blood circulation.

Amelia: Exactly

Tatiana: Or when it starts coming. Growing back.

Amelia: I did that. And I also found that to be soothing, you know, it was back to your point about, you know, you used one of my favorite words, you know, to calm the skin. I also found that even massaging the oil onto my scalp. It was calming me because there were so many emotions that I was going through at any given moment. I think you pretty much get through that first; you know process just basically through sheer will right? I mean because your mind can only process so many things and then you start to see yourself and it's it can be really traumatic. And so for me it was soothing to do the massages and I felt like it was helping my skin also. One of the things that I also found surprising you said this a second ago is how incredibly sensitive my skin on my head was. So I was starting to put sunscreen on it because again, I never did that before. I never. I use sunscreen all over my face and my hands and my arms and everything, but I never have put on screen on, obviously, on my head. But..it was so. So tell us a little bit about, you know, it's almost again, becomes an extension of your face and how you care for yourself, right?

Tatiana: Totally. And I don't know if you have. If you have heard about when you are in cold weather and you put a hat on... like if you keep your head covered, you're hot.

Amelia: Yes

Tatiana: Right. If you remove it, then it's when you get cold then hold the sensations and what you're saying is. It's true. I mean, it's just. I don't know if you try to massage your face as well, but when you massage your face and when you just give the love, and the touch is just so soothing and calming. That's why again, I always recommend to do a massage on your face and on your scalp and everywhere if you can. Is just because it's very soothing and what you're saying, yes, is an extension of your face. We never think about that because we always have hair. And more, you know, most of us, we have long hair, even though we both don't.

No but when you have hair and it covers the whole head, with the clients that I have that are totally bald is like OK, are you putting sunscreen? Because yes, you have to cover it or you have to put sunblock because it will burn. Same thing as any part that is showing skin.

Amelia: Yes. And so sensitive. I didn't appreciate how sensitive it can be, but again, it's a skin that has been covered for many, many years,

Tatiana: And exactly that's what I was going to say. Just remember that they hair also helps to be a barrier. You know, to things coming into your scalp. So when you don't have that barrier anymore, it gets very, very sensitive because it has never been exposed to heat, to cold, to sun, to anything like that. So that's why it gets so sensitive. And it's so important to take care of it Castor oil, is a good oil for that. I mean that helps with the growth of the hair. And just because it fortifies the follicle, so it makes a little bit stronger and that's something else that people that are thinning the hair, not losing completely, but they are just thinning the hair, they can use it because it will help to fortify again, the follicle so the hair that you have, it's going to stay there because it's going to be stronger. So that's why.

Amelia: How should it be applied and how much should someone? And I know we're going to now get into also kind of looking at how to pick the right products and understanding how to you know how to read the labels and all that kind of good stuff. But for these oils, especially for Castor oil, that I've heard so much about, very good things about...How do people know how much to apply and how to apply it on the skin?

Tatiana: The way I apply it is I just put it if it's a pump, just one pump. Let's say maybe ¼ size of the oil. I just put it on both of my hands, and I just go on top. It is very nice and better to do it with your finger with the tips of your fingers. On your fingers. Yeah, I just message it like that instead of, you know, the whole hands is going like, like, you know.

Amelia: So almost apply it the way that we do shampoo because shampoo you rub it in so that you clean, you know, usually that's how we do it. Right. So the Castor oil, is it a thicker oil or is it?

Tatiana: It is thick.

Amelia: OK, so I've heard that. I've heard that it’s kind of..Coconut oil is very smooth, very, you know, kind of...this one is not.

Tatiana: It's not, it's a little bit thicker. So what my suggestion would be is just to apply it if you can do it at night, will be good, just apply it, put out a towel on your pillowcase and sleep like that. OK. You can also use the Castor oil on your eyebrows and eyelashes and they help also when they start growing to be stronger for your eyelashes. You can remove your makeup with that Castor oil.

Amelia: Oh, fascinating. So your eye makeup, you can remove it with that oil and at the same time, it's conditioning your lashes. And if someone, let's say, hasn't used it. So let's say that their eyebrows fell out as well as their eyelashes, and they're now listening to this podcast and they sell comment will get some Castor oil. Does it help start the growth process. If you've not used it and your eyebrows, let’s say are bare, using it helps to regenerate that growth.

Tatiana: Yes, it will help you with time to do it and still if your eyelashes are not coming out yet, you're hydrating the skin. That's something that we need is just to help you know this skin to get better and to for that compromised layer of the skin to be, you know, to get all the good stuff from the oil.

Amelia: When you start to use the products like the Castor oil, specifically how long does it normally take for most people before they start to see the results? They either start to see, let's say, for someone that is growing their hair back...What's an appropriate window of time? Weeks? Months?

Tatiana: It's hard to say because it will depends on each person, right? It could be months. OK, I I definitely say no, don't expect if you're using it today that in a week you will see everything right now. Just remember that everything has a process. So 28 days is you know, normally how long it takes to see any results like not only with the eyelashes or with anything. If you are using a cream and you don't see any results before 28 days, you know you just need to wait because it has all the process you are actually hydrating the new cells that are coming up to the epidermis. So you have to wait for the cycle of life of that cell to come out and see the results. So it could take a month. It could take three months. It really depends.

Amelia: Got it. And that's a good. That's a good data point to have 'cause. I think a lot of times you know people get frustrated. I haven't seen the results and you know, a couple of weeks or I don't see it happening at all. And one thing that I found, you know, personally for me, the eyelashes and eyebrows take a very long time to come back. They are like the sloths of the cells in the body because it's like: One.... I mean, they...they're not hurry because, you know all other hair is faster. At least I have seen it be. But the eyebrows and the eyelashes, they are not in a hurry.

Tatiana: Yes. Yeah, they take longer, they take longer.

Amelia: So let's talk about. We've talked about some products, and I think and you touched on, you know, looking at things and making sure that they're not abrasive. I'd like to. And I know that you give really great perspective also on knowing how to read a label and I think some labels are impossible. So it's not to become an expert on all labels, but to at least recognize the things to steer away from. So I'd like to, you know, spend a little bit of time on that. And then I also want, connected to that, is for people that let's say, are still going to the salon. Their hair is growing back, and I know some folks want to immediately start coloring their hair again. And so I want to spend a minute or two on that and in connection with the journey of understanding, labels, and products and what does stay away from. Yeah, so, so tell us about labels. Yeah, I know you winced when I sent the coloring, but OK. So we'll start there 'cause here's the reason. So when my hair started growing back, I love my doctor, she's amazing. But she said to me, if you want to color, you can. And I heard that from other from other folks and I've had, dear ones who have gone through chemotherapy and colored their hair right away and some of them had really bad experiences with that, because I have one friend whose hair turned like a really different shade. It was like an orange shade. I have chosen not to color my hair ever again, so I am embracing as the gray is coming in. I'm thankful that I have hair, that is gray and all of its wonderfulness. So, so talk a little bit about that 'cause that is like the number one question we get: about when can I start coloring my hair again? I know you get that too.

Tatiana: Yeah. Yes. And that that's a big one. And that is something that I always say. Any treatment, we always suggest to wait at least six months. OK. Just because we don't know, I mean, it really depends again on each individual, how your hair comes out, how strong it is. You know, because what I have heard is that they hair doesn't come out exactly the same as before. So you really need to see if it works or if it, you know, if it doesn't work in six months. Maybe you need to wait a little bit longer. It’s, I guess, what you were telling me before with your friend, we don't know how the hair is going to take it.

Amelia: Exactly.

Tatiana: The, you know, the tinted. You can use Hannah in the meantime. We don't recommend Black Hannah, but just regular Hannah. I know it doesn't last as long as before and probably, you know, as long as any regular tinting product, but it is more natural and you can see you know if maybe it works. If your doctor says it's OK to dye your hair, well you can do it. But just remember that you are putting something aggressive on your scalp and specially if it's still sensitive, I wouldn't recommend to do anything like that.

Amelia: And that's your point about.. so hair starts growing back, wait six months to see, what is happening before even deciding. And then if you decide to do the coloring, then you would say start with something very gentle that again is not going to last as long. But can still give you the cover. Some people also use like the root touch up, which is that spray that can people use in between coloring. Some people use that, because that's supposed to be... and washes out with a couple of shampoos.

Tatiana: Yeah, you can use that, but just remember Amelia it’s not only for people that are going through, treatment, it is just everybody. The ingredients are not good.

Amelia:  That’s a really great point.

Tatiana:  For you, it could be more irritant, but it is something that we're always looking for, something. We haven't found anything so far that is completely clean, you know, with the ingredients that you can use, and you can dye your hair with that.

Amelia: Exactly

Tatiana: So. And I'm not a cosmetologist. I'm just a skin care therapist, so maybe if we talked to a cosmetologist, but I have in all the oncology trained institutions and cosmetologists that are in the United States and we have a group and there is, like, really nothing that is completely clear that you can use not only for you, but for anybody or anything.

Amelia: And we did an article that we read a few months back, we shared for our newsletter around the importance of really understanding the chemicals that are in the products that are, coloring agents just for women specially to understand any risks associated with cancer as a result of that. Again, it was more just to be aware. I think we make the assumption we go into the salon, and we make the assumption that it's a good product. But not knowing what's really in it and to your point, understanding how much of it is natural versus what isn't. Those are all pieces that I think we need to be more informed as a consumer than we maybe today, just assuming that it's, that it's fine. So and that kind of circles back to the to the whole label components. So tell us a little bit about kind of your best tips on warning... things to say “nope”, if it's on there, that's going to be too abrasive or stay away from these kinds of words on any label and then what else should we be cognizant of as we’re looking at labels.

Tatiana: OK.

Amelia: I now read labels! I never read labels before when it came to cosmetics. And now I'm like, what is that word? And if I don't understand it and it's too hard, I'm moving on, because it's probably not good.

Tatiana: Yeah, exactly. The less ingredients, the better. First of all, so if you have a list of so many ingredients is like, Oh my gosh, OK, this is, who knows what it's in here.

Amelia: It almost looks like a chemotherapy bag sometimes. I'm like, what is it? What’s in this product?

Tatiana: Yes, totally. And the good thing, though, is that now we have Google. So if we don't find, you know what that means, that specific ingredient is like, OK, I better go and look it up. What is this? Is it good or is it bad? So it really depends on you know, But definitely fragrance is a big irritant. So if you see anything that says it has fragrance? Perfume? No way. You shouldn't. You shouldn't use it.

Amelia: Even though you would think that sometimes that, oh, that would be nice. It's gentle and all that, but your point is no, you want to stay fragrance free when it comes to things, you're choosing to put and product you're using other than perfume itself, but that's different.

Tatiana: Exactly. Yeah. And as a matter of fact, like some products, especially like the ones that are made naturally, they do have a smell, but it is not fragrance. You know what I mean?

Amelia: Absolutely.

Tatiana: Something that they, I mean fragrance added as an ingredient is totally different than the fragrance or the perfume from different essential oils, for example, that are there.

Amelia: Like coconut oil has a natural fragrance. But it is, the essence of that odor, as opposed to an added. It's almost like, it's like, you know, fragrances are like added sugar. You want to stay away from added sugars. You can have regular sugar. You can have fruit, but you don’t need to dip it into sugar.

Tatiana: Exactly. Things like that. Something that will dry your skin is alcohol. That's another one that I say, you know, it's not very good. Parabens are also something that you if you can, you should avoid. But again, what I do because I can't tell you. I mean I know some of the words in the ingredients and some ingredients, but I'm not an expert and sometimes it's like OK, what is this? So, I go to the app that I told you that I like the EWL and I can scan the product there. As a matter of fact, yesterday I was doing paddleboard with my sister-in-law, and she showed me a sunblock and I'm like...oh!! Because I know it has ingredients that are not good. so I'm like oh, why are you using this? I said, well, let me get my app and I scan it and it was number 10, meaning the worst. And she's like, oh, oh, wow. I didn't know. Now, I know. And I said, yeah, you always have to stay in the minerals, more than chemical sunblock.

Amelia: And those are the things right, I mean...and I think that for a patient going through treatment, it's compounded because I know my skin became so much more sensitive almost immediately. It was it, you know, I had. And for me, the essential oils were the difference makers. So for me it was the coconut oil was magical when it came to any type of rash that would pop up. I would sometimes get these, red spots that they were just temporary. So it almost looked like a little bit of a like a like a spot, that sunburned. And then it would go away. But every time, if I apply just a little bit of coconut oil on it, it soothed it and then it would go away. And so I stayed in that lane of products that were basic as opposed to either a)starting with something completely new that my skin had not experienced before, or something that seemed super complicated.

Tatiana: Yes, yes, and something that it's, I think we all should have in our backyard or even at home is aloe. Aloe is the best. It is calming, it's hydrating, and it is so easy to grow. You can have a plant in the backyard and just gets the leaf and take the crystals out and just put it on your face. You have to do it with moderation because you can also get sensitized because of aloe. So if you use it every day all the time, it's not good either. You have to introduce it slowly, as everything you do to your skin, during that time and see if it works for you or if it doesn't right and just make sure that you're not allergic to aloe.

Amelia: Right. So a little spot test always. Sometimes people also talk about pores getting clogged if either too much oil is being used or some ingredients. What's line there on that? Because I and I've never experienced it. You know, I've actually had the opposite, especially with chemo, but sometimes oils get a bad rap under the guise that they can clog pores. What's the truth?

Tatiana: OK, the truth. If you were a regular client of mine, you're not going through treatment, OK? Your skin is oily. I’d say don't go with coconut oil because it can clog, you know it can clog your pores.

Amelia: Because the person has oily skin, so there's already an oil naturally being produced.

Tatiana: But. But, just remember that like attract like. So it is not always because you have an oily skin, you cannot use oil on your skin. Because actually, balances out the oil mix. But the coconut oil is “famous” in esthetic companies that coconut oil can be comedogenic so meaning it could clog the pores. OK, so that's one thing, but for example Jojoba oil, it's one that is very similar, and it doesn't clog the pores. So that's something that you can use on your skin.

Amelia: When people tell you to like, you know, spot test something. So we're reading our labels. We're checking this app that you told us about, which we also posted it on the site. So people can check that out. When people say spot test something to see whether you have an allergic reaction....If I put something on my wrist, let's say, it's the same. So it's not like sometimes you think oh if my face is sensitive but my skin on my hand is not... it's the same. It’s going to have the same reaction.

Tatiana: It's this same or you can always put it behind your ear. Behind the ear, on your neck, you know right here and see how it works. But I normally like if I'm doing an enzyme, for example for a client that is not in treatment, but it's any other kind and I'm not sure if that person is allergic to the enzyme. I just put it on the wrist, and I wait, you know, 24 hours and see how it works.

Amelia: That was my next question... usually within 24 hours, your skin will let you know if there is an issue.

Tatiana: Yes. It could be immediately. Like if you put something that doesn't agree with you is like right, you can get the redness, and everything. That has happened to me.

Amelia: So yeah, so but usually. But even if it doesn't happen right away, usually within 24 hours, if something flares, then that's an issue. Tell us a little bit about....so we talked about, products, talked about, obviously the routines....Kind of putting it all together now into tips for how to establish, let's say a person doesn't have a good or existing skin care routine today. How do they create one that is easy to maintain? Recognizing that when you're in treatment, you've got fatigue, you’ve got other ailments that are that are, tearing at you. So I'm always focused on things that are going to be easy to do and easy to maintain.  What are some that you would say, here, if you do nothing else. These are the things you have to do to maintain your skin, your hair, and nails routine.

Tatiana: OK, yes. For your skin, for your face. It is important to have a cleanser, a moisturizer, SPF. If you have those three, I think you can manage you know everything. You need to cleanse your skin. Just because...I know I always recommend to do it at night and only once a day.

Amelia: So once a day for cleaning only? So don't you don't have to wash your face in the morning and at night? You can splash some water. But your suggestion is when you go to actually clean, you can do it just once a day, at night.

Tatiana: Yes. Remove it just because, if you had, some type of makeup or just from the day. It’s just when you sleep all the cell regenerate, so you want to have a clean face for the cells to get oxygen and everything. That's why it's important to cleanse it. So you cleanse it with a mild soap or cleanser, I should say. And then you have a moisturizer that it would be, you know, if it has hyaluronic acid, will be really good because it helps with the hydration or even if it's a serum. If you can add it. But just we were talking about. Three things basically on the moisturizer. That's it. OK. And you go to sleep.

In the morning, as you were saying, if you take a shower, you wash your hair. Whatever.  You get, the water on your on your face, you can use the moisturizer. Again, once you get out of the shower and then put the SPF. It is super important to use SPF and I insist like every time I see a person to apply it.

Amelia: What is the minimum of protection of 20%, 25 SPF? What's your?

Tatiana: I will say 30% minimum, 30 SPF. Yes.

Amelia: Got it. And then that's it. That's your routine. That kind of get going. And then if we go into the basics for makeup. So there are some people that love their makeup routine and do a beautiful job at it. Other people are just saying just, you know, help me be able to minimally look, you know, my best and be presentable. What's the best, easiest way to maintain a makeup routine, after the cleansing and the caring of that?

Tatiana: OK. Um. I'm not like I used to do makeup like all the time for work and you know, being with my eye shadows, everything. But lately, few years ago now it's like, OK, I'm in a rush. I need to do everything fast.

Amelia: Exactly.

Tatiana: So what I do is I use an SPF. I stop using foundations. I use an SPF that is tinted and that for me has been a game changer because it looks like I have a foundation, but I don't. It’s an SPF. Put some color on your cheeks. That way will help you. You know, feel, better. And sometimes I don't use a different brush for my eyes, but I just go on top of my eyelids with the same blush and just go on top. And that's it. Basically. I put on eyeliner and eye mascara. Sometimes I don't even use eyeliner, I just use the mascara and that's it.

You're going to tell me? Yeah, but if you're going through treatment, you won't have any eyelashes. Right?

Amelia: Right. Right.

Tatiana: So you put the eyeliner because having a shadow on your eyes, it looks like you have eyelashes. So that would be the trick, and that is the only way to recreate the eyelashes is by having the eyeliner.

Amelia: Because it creates a little bit of that darkness. What was interesting is, you know, and again, and no one knows this until it actually happens is when your eyelashes fall, even if you have thin eyelashes, there is, to your point, that shadow around your eyes. Your eyelashes fall out, then your eye looks the same color...the surrounding part, looks the same color as the rest of your skin. So your eye looks exposed. In a way that like for me, I didn't even realize that that was happening until, I saw what was happening. And so I learned to apply the eyeliner. I usually never used eyeliner before because my eyelashes were enough. But it takes a minute to get the eyeliner to where it can create the effect that an eyebrow, sorry, that an eyelash would normally do. But then you do that. And then last but not least, the eyebrows. Perhaps kind of one of the most central focus points of the face. And again, we don't realize that until they completely fall off. So and I know that that's a hard thing. I went through one of your seminars early on. Three years ago I went through seminars that you did, which was amazing, and I learned how to, do my eyebrows in that seminar.

So tell us a little bit about that because I know that that is a hard thing to do.

Tatiana: It is so hard that it's even hard to explain how to do it. You know, in a podcast and not when they see me.

Amelia: Yes, exactly.

Tatiana: But I guess the easiest way to recreate the eyebrows is just to...even if you have no eyebrows, right? there is a little like shadow, you know, kind of where your eyebrows used to be. So just take...

Amelia: Or using a picture, right? So I also heard using a picture because before I was actually before I did that, I was drawing them on more than what they were before 'cause I didn't remember. So I was overdoing it and then when I saw a picture, I started to use that old picture of me as my guide. I realized that I didn't have to do that much work. I was working way harder than I needed to create these, eyebrows that I didn’t have before...

Tatiana: Yes, that's true. That's true. So you can use a picture or you can just follow, if you still have that shadow, just get the....Oh my goodness, I forgot... the shadows from your eyes and you can just draw a little bit. Not too much, but just to have, like, kind of a stencil, if I may say, just put it there and know exactly where you want to start and where you want to end. The best thing is, and that's what I always show to how to recreate the eyebrows, is to take out the pencil and just put it next to your nose straight. Like vertically. And just right there will be your first point. Then to draw we basically we draw three points. Then the second point will be when you are looking straight into the mirror, and you see where the color of your eye finishes, that is your second point and again we are just, you know, going with the pencil vertically. And then the last one, would be where your eyebrow is going to finish, that you go from the corner of your nose to the corner of your eye, and right there is where the third point is, and you just need to add a point. The way of adding it, is just go with a line, with the pencil, very sharp, because the key is to have a very sharp pencil, and just start with feathery movements recreating the hair. OK. Again, when you see that the pencil doesn't have that much of the point, then you sharpen again and you do it again. OK?

Amelia: Because that pencil is going to make it look like little fine hairs.

Tatiana: Yes.

Amelia: And it's also going to keep it from doing too much. Because if you use a crayon effect, they will look, you know, too drawn on. They won't look even how your eyebrows were before. Exactly.

Tatiana: They won’t look natural.

Amelia: Exactly.

Tatiana: They will look more like a tattoo. Kind of. Not really microblading, you know, see the difference here? So yeah, you can do it like that. And then you take the brush from your eyebrows...They sell on one side, the brush for your eyelashes, and on the other side, for the eyebrows. And you just go on top of it and you just kind of, put it together. OK. It doesn't make, they don't look so harsh or so “liney” looking, but it's more natural looking. And again, just remember that the eyebrows are sisters, and they are not twins.

Amelia: Yes!

Tatiana: So they are not going to look exactly the same. Ever!

Amelia: They've never did before! And that's the thing, I think. We forget sometimes what are eyebrows looked like, and therefore, then it becomes...we take on more than what we need to, to do whatever it is that we want to do. And I think even softer, because even having just a little bit of color on the eyebrow is perfectly fine. It frames the face...it you don't need for it to look as intense as a fully thick. Kind of. You know, traditional eyebrow.

Tatiana: Yeah, exactly. And you just said it. The eyebrows are the frame of the face. So that's why they are so important. And you look... you can, like when you see in the mirror it’s like OK what happened? It is just because of that. Everybody can change so much with no eyebrows or with eyebrows.

Amelia: It’s incredible.

Tatiana: And you can still you can still use stencils. They sell them. It's just that there are so many different styles and shapes. And everything, that you just will need to look and see which one you like the most. And then there is a powder that they sell. But it's going to look more as a tattoo than really as a microblading.

Amelia: Exactly. Exactly. And I think for most patients, they just want to be able to...I know I did. I just wanted to be able to have a little bit of texture in my face, where my eyebrows were, as opposed to, you know, the recreation of the whole thing.

Tatiana: But that's I mean, that is a very fast and easy routine for makeup and lipstick. You know...

Amelia: Exactly.

Tatiana: Now that we don't have to use the masks all the time, they can definitely help. But something that I asked to please avoid are the fake eyelashes. They are very harsh on your skin or your delicate area of the eye. So even though I know if it's on special occasion because you have a wedding or because anything like that? OK, but still, just be careful.

Amelia: Very careful using. Yeah. Yeah. And I think again with the right techniques, you can create a shadow effect on your eye without having to have the extension of the eyelash itself.

This is wonderful! So I so appreciate you taking time today to kind of walk us through: one, starting with how we really care for the skin, all the way out to what can be an easy way to put ourselves together and kind of show our best selves out there, which I know again, is really hard to do when you're going through cancer treatment!  But I think that sometimes those little things that you were talking about, actually, at least I found, it helped me to cope better because it also helped me feel a little bit more myself, during a time where I was, you know, it was challenging to feel that way...And so many other, in other ways, it was a nice way to be able to balance it. So thank you for being with us today. It was, it was a pleasure as always.

Tatiana: Thank you!

Amelia: We will have your information on the site. As we mentioned at the top of the hour, which is Wellness On Wheels by Lily Bell. Thank you, Tatiana, for being with us today.

Tatiana: Thank you. And I love to be here!

Amelia: Absolutely! We look forward to having you back. Thanks so much.

Tatiana: Thank you. Bye.